every denomination that isn't explicitly Calvinist: all of them except Presbyterians and Reformed every denomination that is explicitly non-Calvinist: Methodists, Pentecostals, Adventists, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox Prof_Acorn 2 yr. ago It depends, some advocates of Reformed theology say, on whether Christians on both sides are willing to tiptoe through the TULIP-the acrostic for five doctrinal points that set apart Calvinists. Per PSA, I am pretty sure that that is the official stance of the Lutheran end of thingsbut I really shouldnt be talking about theories of the atonement because I havent studied them worth a hoot. It is counterproductive. We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless! I have no problem with thatno one likes to be labeled. That is what Jesus spoke against over and over in his short life. If I remain silent, then Piper gets to define what it means to be Reformed, even though he denies a lot of Reformed theology and veers into hyper-Calvinism at times. Theyve boarded a bus and decided to ride it to the end of the line. At any rate, the point is that I agree with you (even though I disagree that TULIP is slanderous) that when we start elevating these doctrines to first tier issues, we are causing division within the body. Ive not asked anyone to agree with me. One of the problems in these conversatiosn is that some Calvinists will say, Cal does not teach X!, and maybe it does not(? (But I always wondered why, if it was not His desire that any man should perish, that He also would create someone specifically for hell??). As Ive said on older threads, back when I was considering becoming a Calvinist and began lurking at their forums and perusing their sites, and I began e mailing them asking them if they could explain Calvinism for me and clear up some confusion I had, this happened a lot. I believe that Calvin and, more importantly, Scripture says that nothing we think, say, or do comes as a surprise to God. She discussed the abuse that she has been subjected to in her life. God has chosen THEM as the sole recipients of His TRUTH. Please, please, please, keep us posted on your son in law. In fact, I would have said that TWW was more anti-Calvinist than it was anti-Abuse. It doesnt conform to our sense of fairness and love. If I threw a piece of chalk at you, in one very real sense I would be the cause of that chalk flying through the air, having exercised the strength of my right arm. Written by Daniel Isaiah Joseph in Charts. God is bigger than us and is beyond our understanding except for some basics. This is a false dichotomy. We are also workers. I think the scripture uses the language of both perspectives, so it is not a view without merit. elatigirl Im with you here, which is why I dont post much on these theological threads It seems useless to me to try to figure out God especially as Scripture makes it clear that he has many attributes on either end of the spectrum. People, including you, got upset from Calvinists just stating their views. Thanks for the link to the article on Sproul, Jr. As many are probably thinking, what would Sproul, Sr. have to say about this? CALVIN! And that I need to keep praying that God will teach me to love them the way he wants me to. I.E. Ive seen only the first 15 minutes so far, and what he says makes sense to me: Is God the AUTHOR OF SIN? So I Must Be! as the indicator. No, not a few verses, and not Calvin, but what Scripture says consistently about election, predestination, Gods omniscience and omnipotence, Gods love, etc.? @ Headless Unicorn Guy: I honestly dont know.) Wesley and Whitefield came from opposite sides of the argument and yet I understand were able to have tolerable, if not friendly, relationships surely an encouragement to everyone else? Thats misrepresenting my heart, Argo! If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. Good post Dee (If Im allowed to comment on this one!). If Calvinism sounds so much like Arminianism, why is there such a problem? Prior to learning of the YRR thing, I actually tried to force my self to accept the thinking as presented by these men. We can learn some from them, but much of what they proposed brought bondage to systems, pain, and even death to some earnestly seeking God. It is used to define gender roles, the age of the earth, eschatology, and election. Every kindness & every meanness I do sends ripples outward and I birth the future by my words and deeds. At the Spiritual Sounding Board blog, in the threads about Calvinism, I saw Cals on occasion contradicting each other. These include Park Street Church in Boston with Paul Toms as pastor; Chapel Hill Bible Church in North Carolina with Jim Abrahamson as pastor and Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Dallas with Pete Briscoe as pastor. 2. I know that it started spontaneously on another thread, but you could have said enough.. When people are discussing a theological point over which they have never been hurt, they will present more matter-of-factly. I'd also add Thomas Cranmer to that group (leader of the English Reformation, author of the Book of Common Prayer, and most of the 39 Articles) 7. It simply makes it harder for people who are trying to recover from abuse, and continue to believe that God is good and loves them, to want to engage in a search for Truth. Right after I became a Christian, I purchased Jesus Christ Superstar! This, of course, is totally irrelevant. Youd be welcome at the table in my wigwam too Jeff. Anyway, as far as it depends on me, I really do want to be peaceful and avoid even the appearance of allegiance to anyone other than Christ Jesus, my Lord and Savior. But my point wasnt to proof text Calvin. (Putting it mildly!!!). which many people hold as dear as religion and political beliefs. When we hold to a law or principle that we think makes us better Christians but instead, causes existential damage to others, then something about that law/principle is awry and needs thorough reconstruction. I dont know how else God can allow his creation to be truly free, if he steps in each and every time somebody decides to hurt somebody else, or if He removes all evil from society all the time. Lin wrote: Might we call what youre describing love? Ah yes, those were the days A friend of mine came to the Lord while living in the hills above Santa Barbara in a teepee and smoking a lot of pot He and his wife were some of the most sane, grounded people I knew in the 80s. Even if they do end up with Pythonesque theology that embarrasses more thoughtful calvin sympathisers. Like who can find Gods plan in the most horrible tragedy? I was drawn to the faith forseveral years due to my reading as well as viewing Billy Graham on the television. JeffS we were writing at the same time. Calvins instituted Christian Religion is very much a place for the wise and learned, and hidden from little children. Considering the amount of people we are seeing who have had these experiences, I wish the accusations about misrepresenting the Reformed/Calvin/Tulip systems would take a back seat. Do you not understand non Calvinists read the scriptures with the intent of honestyseeing what it says instead of wanting it to conform to our beliefs yet reading the very same scriptures with due diligence, do not come to a believe (amongst other things)in double predestination. TULIP was formed many years after Calvins death to counter five points made by followers of Arminius, though the concepts are in Calvins writings. My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. What I DO think is clear is that God can use evil for good and he works all things for good of those with faith in him. You might want to read The Institutes some time. I know you know how to do that because Ive seen you do it at ACFJ. It bothered me a whole lot (and she and I talked about it via email), but it also crystallized some things for me. Also, not all Calvinists are believe in particular pre-destination that is, not all Calvinists believe God causes everything, there are degrees from some just view salvation as pre-destined, to others believing you are reading this because God ordained it from the beginning, so Pipers view of tornadoes is not universally agreed on by Calvinists. I think that is biblical. John Calvin (1509-1564) Michael Servetus (1511-1553) John Knox (c. 1513-1572) Teresa of Avila (1515-1582) Theodore Beza (1519-1605) Peter Baro (1534-1599) Caspar Coolhaes (1536-1615) Herman Witsius (1636-1708) Charles Borromeo (1538-1584) John of the Cross (1542-1591) Johannes Piscator (1546-1625) Richard Hooker (1554-1600) So, for example, we just did this study of the WCF with a a group at my church. I accept with humility that there are things that I cannot understand. God would never have deliberately planned that my Calvinist pastor-father would sexually abuse me for years and years. . We do better together than we do on our own. God does indeed work in mysterious and wonderful ways And what is an ocean but a multitude of single drops? And I get better at flying (so to speak). The Calvinist thought process is: God has foreordained every word I say, therefore, I cannot be wrong. Oy. New Calvinism is not a new branch of theology or a denomination. God sends rain on the just and the unjust. Plus I had never heard of tongues). But that isnt enough. It is entirely congregationally driven, so the church votes on pastors, and votes on board members (elders), not the other way around. My young son-in-law has just been diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. Makes available his super-ability where your ability comes to an end. I dont want to speak out of turn here, but I wonder if the word calvinist should be banned, like the word bitter, due to the frequency with which it is taken out of context and/or the extent to which it means different things to different people. Though it purports otherwise, its every bit as secular as the rest of them, as it has nothing to do with knowing the Father, and everything to do creating a theoretical specification for ones own ideal God. Everything. I can see why many walk away . In any case, though, youre right. Breastmilk tested at 1 year postpartum is different than breastmilk at 6 months postpartum, etc. Michael Brown David Jeremiah Dave Hunt J. W. MacGorman E. Y. Mullins Herschel Hobbs W. T. Conner Frank Stagg Fisher Humphreys Bert Dominy Ken Keathley Norm Geisler Alister McGrath David Bentley Hart Mike Licona When we say, during the inevitable discussion of Gods sovereignty with a traumatized person, that even wrongs are ordained because God ordains all, we cause existential damage. Mark Driscoll, John Piper and Tim Keller megachurch preachers and important evangelical authors are all Calvinist. This might be where Romans 8:28 comes in, or the story of Joseph in the Old Testament. . Would really like to read Against Calvinism, as Im still sorting through the havoc that Calvinism caused in my own spiritual life (or, at least, the version of it I latched on to). How wonderful to remember those days! . But I respect that he does what he does for the same reason I do: we believe that people are at stake, and suffering is the penalty for losing the debate. It caused her great pain to contemplate the Calvinist belief that God had ordained for her to be abused in such a manner. Founders made the list, as did John Piper, Jonathan Edwards, RC Sproul, James White and the first Southern Baptist confession of faith (which is still used at Southern and Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminaries, and which even the famous non-Calvinist Paige Patterson has signed), the Abstract of Principles. My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. Ive tried to suss out how a good, all powerful God can exist at the same time as evil, and I just dont have an answer. Jesus said to believe in him as a child. Addressing what many evangelical Christians are concerned about todayso-called "new Calvinism," a movement embraced by a generation labeled as "young, restless, Reformed" Against Calvinism is the only book of its kind to offer objections from a non-Calvinist perspective to the current wave of Calvinism among Christian youth. He is noted for a broad view of what constitutes Protestant "orthodoxy." Why didnt he write a short book on a more important subject, like Robert Burtons The Anatomy Of Melancholy, written after Calvins death? Calvinism , the theology advanced by John Calvin, a Protestant reformer in the 16th century, and its development by his followers.The term also refers to doctrines and practices derived from the works of Calvin and his followers that are characteristic of the Reformed churches.The Calvinist form of Protestantism is widely thought to have had a He, as I said previously, shows quotes by Calvinists during the video. But, dee, how can any of us answer the deeper questions without Scripture? EGOTISM. So MY goals when I talk about Calvinism here on the forum are to a) clear up misconceptions that would cause people to unnecessarily reject the theology so that they can know for real what it is they are rejecting. Sydney Anglicans are Calvinist, Moore College is strongly Calvinist, as of course are the Presbyterians and some Baptists. Quotes about calvinism It is nice to meet someone who remembers.If you dont mind me prying, where did you grow up? As a Catholic, I learned that if someone told me they were Christian, I accepted their word. Holds you and strokes the back of your head. I would be happy, however, to never use the label Calvinist again, out of respect for Jeff and Jeff. We were just grateful to be around otherChristians. Someone on another blog (I think it was another blog, unless I saw it here earlier) posted a link to this video. So if you say oh yes, bringing God glory is the sole reason for mankind without ever pushing back like you did, elastigirl, their tacit assumption is that you have just conceded the soundness of their doctrine. Ok, see I was looking at this in a totally different way. Roger E. Olson (born 1952) is Professor of Theology, George W. Truett Theological Seminary, Baylor University, Waco, Texas, USA. This is not the Calvinist thought process. If I had to pick one thing about them that signals danger to me, though, it would be what they dont act on, which is all those chickified wishy-washy decaffy gay things Jesus (and subsequently the apostles) said about love being The Main Thing. There is something that has been horribly misinterpreted in the verse about All things work together for good..etc It has almost created a cult of catastrophe. I used to have the same problem talking with, or debating Roman Catholics, online. Dee, thank you for sharing that testimony, and article. Mennonite churches are great in Canada, evangelical, women allowed in all roles, and not really on one side or the other, but are focused on outreach, missions and allow many different people to preach in their pulpits (including some who would call themselves Reformed). Anyway, I am not talking doctrine here. Need I say that an airtight perfect system spanning 2400+ pages and written by a young lawyer smacks of know-it-all with a bit of OCD? Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. @ Steve D: Why would the Bible portray God in such a way (that isnt true) just to make a point? Whatever power is exhibited in this world is not due to an independent machine with its own source of power and energy. At least in Christianity, we have a God who did not allow us to suffer alone, but participated in experiencing the effects of evil. The volumes below reflect Baptist beliefs and convictions, yet non-Baptists read many of these well-reviewed volumes as well. The writers did claim to believe much the same, though, even that church and state should work together with the church ruling and the state enforcing church rule. Calvinism stopped making sense to me when I was grieving the loss of my son last year. My bet would be that some (many?) Attendance at Calvin-influenced worship conferences and churches is up,. (I mean, Star Trek?). Yet, somewhere after the third paragraph, this young, rudderless teen stopped reading, glanced over at Star Trek on the television, began to cry, whispered, I believe and crossed that final frontier from unbelief into belief. Or if I make it to the Board of Ordained Ministry in February, Ill share my recording. If I were there when a Calvinist or any other professing believer (or atheist or whatever) told someone who was suffering or grieving something that was sure to make the person feel worse, I can practically guarantee that I would shut that person up and have words with him/her. Thousands of contemporary Calvinists cut their theological teeth on the teachings of Sproul and MacArthur and their respective ministries, Ligonier and Grace to You . Advocate & Solicitor of the High Court of Malaya. Here is my point as a non-theology major. By 'not real' I mean that the meaning is destroyed in the overall thought of the clause or sentence. To claim Were doing well so we must be righteous is banal theological incompetence. Im not trying to imply that you have never done the later. Mohler is either clueless or his inflated view of self distorts what he has done to the Southern Baptist Convention. And those who have been left behind when theyve fallen in between, On the altar of the simple road is the blood of the messy gray Dee, your post brought back child hood memories of Boston. In fact, with respect and not intending to hurt feelings, it is the Calvinists who are misrepresenting their own doctrine by refusing to acknowledge the contradictions (whichthey do this by arguing that truth really cant be known). Reformed theology celebrates the glory of God. I Am a Christian - The first reason I'm not a Calvinist is that John Calvin was a man. They never want to explain why what they believe brings God more glory than what you believe. Its a tough line to walk, though. Recently, Julie Anne Smith, of the Spiritual Sounding Board, hada bit of a crisis in dealing with Calvinism. I hear the person,"Calvin," discussed more than "Jesus." Any small error can lead us on to some very large mistakes if we arent careful. Was your family Christian? But something has changed in the last number of years. Dee, thank you so much for asking for prayers for my son-in-law! The beginning of thought is in disagreement not only with others but also with ourselves.-Eric Hoffer. If we get to where we can podcast, Ill drop you a link. Tthe book recommend by someone on this thread, Is God to Blame? Is helping me shake off the residual effects of hyper-Calvinism, too. . That was not the case with Pete Briscoe as pastor. There are a lot of avenues going on here. Ive done better with some on TWW than others, many times because of my own insensitivity. Might we call what youre describing love? However, I have repeatedly heard calvinists call other believers heretics and blasphemers because they disagree with a pillar of calvinism (eg, they have a different definition of Gods sovereignity, or they believe Christ died for the sins of all). I am not saying that Calvinists are going to hell or anything radical like that. The last point of Calvinism we'll be dealing with is the perseverance of the saints. I dont want to convince anyone of a certain brand of Christianity. I think these are minor issues, but it is what it is. Pg 75 Good to be reminded we are not at war with fellow believers and its never wrong to be kind. But in doing so, I fear that people who might get a lot of benefit from Calvinism might be rejecting it for the wrong reasons. They want pure milk easy to digest, soothing, warms their tummy, meets their needs, gives comfort, nourishes them and helps them grow. My frustration when Ive discussed Calvinism online has been that its others who want to push me into make it all fit boxes. He sets a great example and I appreciate his ability to charitable in discussing beliefs that others dont believe or accept. How dare he write such a long work! Why is Guidepost Solutions now involved? Thank you for helping me out. I believe that I am endowed by my Creator with the power to put an end to the vast majority of human misery and suffering in this life It begins with me as a single drop in a vast ocean. Anyways, just to say, Calvinism is a much larger group than the current T4G/TGC and followers. This is a corollary to Julie Anne Smith's story above. Wade is never too tired to defend what he believes, and he will not eschew the oppositions venue. It is a goal of this blog to extendthe dialog to include Calvinists and even find areas with which we can agree. We didn't worry so much about exacting doctrine. (LogOut/ The Calvinist thought process is: God has foreordained every word I say, therefore, I cannot be wrong. I can know that such a rule/principle is wrong because Jesus said the two central commands are to love God above all and neighbor as self, and then he called the rest of the Bible, all the laws and principles to be an addendum to those central two laws. The Baptist tradition is one of the most diverse in Protestant Christianity. I didnt say childish. Thank you for letting me know what you think Jesus meant. He also read the Gospel of John for the first time, (it was given to him), while smoking pot, @ Headless Unicorn Guy:YOu should see my Christmas tree. I have found peace in accepting that I will not fully understand in this life, and maybe not even in the life to come. But the rest of the bad stuff? What bothers me is that your leaders disregard my objections, calling me barely a Christian or saying that Olson is not a Christian. But never, ever did it raise anything except a good discussion. I didnt say we should be satisfied with the milk of the word. You should see some of the other ixtian blogs. . @ Hester: Which is also one of the reasons I mentioned (a bit upthread) that Lutheran does not equal having to believe in every daggoned thing that Luther wrote. Probably about 0.27 Pinkie Pies worth. When we dont like what someone teaches we try to make them a non Christian so we dont have to love them. Questions should be addressed to the male authority in ones life., 4) Christ died NOT for us, but to bring glory to the Father. The WCF clearly states that God is not the author of sin. Contemporary Famous Calvinists: D.A. @ Muff Potter: I know this all too well, Im afraid, but it goes for *anything* even art, music, theater, etc. Not really thinking things though. It is perfectly fine to disagree and to contend for our view of Scripture. When I correct someone, mostly my goal is to show them that the ones who taught them this horrible doctrine are the outsiders with fringe beliefs, not them. We are actively involved in making choices and exercising real power. Never mind those 2400+ pages of Perfectly-Parsed Theology also stem from the same base assumptions about God as Mohammed that Gods Omnipotent Will overrides everything else about God, never mind physical reality. So perhaps it carries untruth? I dont think God wanted this to happen- any more than he plans for children to be abused or any other of the litany of horrors that go on in this world. All the Catholic and Orthodox traditions, major liturgical Protestant groups like Lutheran and Anglican, and the Arminian/Methodist/Holiness line, which would include many Charismatics, Non-denominational, etc. Wasnt that we didnt know we had differences but we were Christians who were in it together. I am a new Methodist pastor, a woman who has a great deal of respect for people who love the Lord and are serious about their study. Not that Im really doing this all that whole-heartedly. Especially the statements above. Some Calvinists will argue that being Non-Cal always means automatically being a universalist, denying the Scriptures, believing in a works-based salvation, or not believing in Gods sovereignty, etc. Even if we say we agree in the fundamentals/indisputables Calvinism makes it clear, and both Jeffs have admitted, that there is no human agency capable of understanding truth fully. whose beliefs have little to do with either Calvin or Arminius. I really think that we have to go to Scripture with the intent of honestly, to the best of our ability, seeing what it says and submitting to its truth, instead of wanting it to confirm our beliefs.